Pondering.

In response to "well, can I just geo-block the UK", Ofcom's reply was that yes, that would bring a site outside the scope of the UK's OSA, but might not scale if other countries implement similar extraterritorial demands.

Part of me wonders whether, if enough sites and services block access to people in the UK, other countries might think twice about going down the same road.

Or they might seen it as a good outcome...

@neil strikes me that for the people doing it it's going to scale better than hiring lawyers, writing risk reports, etc for a site with 20 users

@neil I was pondering about the second option. Essentially this would destroy the Internet as we know it and put it all in the hands of the big boys. Billionaires now control the internet and all the information you'll see.

I'm glad I realise I'm a cynic. 👀

@neil The market in skeezy VPN apps is about to explode. As, coincidentally, is the number of people finding their devices thoroughly pwned.

It's all quite sad. And wholly avoidable.

@neil as a nerd who can use a vpn, i am sort of happy if sites simply “block the uk”. One minimal extra step (connect to vpn) and everything stays normal

@neil inb4 big VPN is funding all of this 👀

@neil Then get used to seeing a lot of this: https://www.boston25news.com/unavailable-location/

@neil If most sites and services block access to people in the UK then there going to be a huge backlash from the public, I think the UK gov and Ofcom underestimate how many will block the UK.

@neil Good coverage Neil, a thankless task. But appreciated. Trying not to be mad at them as they’re just trying to enforce a poor law.

What a mess though

@neil What I still don't understand, is why is a site outside the UK supposed to care about UK law. I live in Brazil; if I build a site in Brazil, hosted in a Brazilian datacenter, why should I have to worry about anything other than Brazilian law? Any UK law matters only to the extent that Brazilian law says it matters, regardless of what the UK (or any other country) says.

@neil

@neil if I had the reach to do it I'd start the "Block the UK" campaign encouraging the entire internet to black out the United Kingdom until they fixed this stupid broken law.

Difficult to do when I'm in the UK myself though, and also when nobody reads anything I write.

@neil That "geo-block [...] might not scale if other countries [...]" line has been bothering me since yesterday, and I finally found the perfect retort: geo-blocking does scale perfectly, it's just a single configuration line for each extra country; what doesn't scale is having to go through a lengthy bureaucratic exercise for each country, with oppressive penalties if you get any small detail wrong, or having to deal with invasive country-specific "age verification" schemas.

@bazzargh Right?!

@mw1cgg I think there's at least some risk of that, and that the compliance burden of running a small server for anything other than personal use could simply become too high.

@bloor @neil For now but a big worry is what happens if the UK push for a full VPN ban? (Tho I think its unlikely right now)

@gilester45 @neil I also commented on the age verification stuff making all the “we have videos of you enjoying adult content” blackmail scams 1000% more believable.

@bloor @neil if the YouTube and podcast ads are to be believed, almost everyone has a VPN these days.

@geoffl I doubt that I'll see it much at all, to be honest. Many others will be affected much worse than I would be, which sucks.

@cesarb

The thinking was not the technical complexity of increasing the geo-blocking, but rather that a site may indeed end up geo-blocking people from an increasing list of countries, reducing the effectiveness/reach of the site.

i.e. wouldn't it be better to "just comply", and keep the sites/services available to all these people who would otherwise be blocked.

It has its flaws as an argument, for sure, but it was not about the technical challenges of geo-blocking.

@TheVampireFishQueen @neil I think it would be very very hard to enact that.

China doesn’t manage in any rigorous way. So I think UK has no chance.

@neil

TOR browser and set ExitNodes {us} StrictNodes 1 in torrc

@neil And that argument has the unspoken assumption that the site cares more about "reach" than the risk of a ruinous penalty. It's better to keep the sites/services available to some by geo-blocking that "increasing list of countries", than not geo-blocking and having to close the site/service for everyone because one of these countries thought you didn't cross some i or dot some t. The core flaw in their argument, it seems, is that they assume compliance with their absurd demands is easy.

@bloor @neil Agreed, I think its more likely the UK will back down on many parts of the OSA when it becomes a disaster overnight.

@neil @cesarb FWIW my thinking for asking the question followed from my past 10 years of dealing with extra-territorial requests.

The only people who can put me in prison or fine me are the CPS. I must comply with UK law or face penalties.

On the flip side I quite happily tell the regulators in foreign authoritarian states which I'll never visit to get in the bin.

So; if I comply with the OSA by geo-blocking the UK and ignore everyone else what are the chances I'll be extradited? Probably quite low.

OFCOM know they can't enforce their will on foreign agents which is why the Access Restriction powers exist and I'll be intrigued to see if any other country attempts extradition over blocking.

@bloor @TheVampireFishQueen

At the moment, there's nothing to suggest that that is on the cards, at least not as far as I know.

@TheVampireFishQueen @neil I have more faith that this current government is responsive to reason and evidence than the last lot. Furthermore, I feel they need it to be a shitshow, so they can blame the creators of it (largely the last lot) and undo lots of it, whilst sticking the knife in.

@cesarb

they assume compliance with their absurd demands is easy.

Yes, very much this.

@neil @bloor Labour did push for amendment to the OSB while it was still in parliament that would have require Ofcom to investigate use of VPNs (Not a ban but many think this was a precursor to one) But I not heard Labour talk about it since then.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vpns-online-safety-bill-labour-champion-b2239810.html

@bloor @neil I have said before that I fear Ofcom is also going to be a scapegoat...

@neil @TheVampireFishQueen @bloor The ban would need to distinguish corporate from personnel. Not easy - e.g. most UK govt IT is all VPN’d up and it just goes to somewhere in AWS, so the simple “we know the IP addresses of VPN providers” does cut it. And can I request the community not spend time trying to solve this…

@TheVampireFishQueen @neil that would be a shame for them. They are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Otoh, they needed to say stuff was unworkable if it was. At a time when it could have made a difference.

Of course, I don’t know they didn’t. So yes.

@bloor @neil Thing is that it would be seen as politically unacceptable and Ofcom would be eaten alive by the daily mail.

Ofcom right now has to make it look like everything is going well before the house of cards comes down.

@Rairii @neil dns blocks and maybe if the owner can be identified they may no longer be able to enter the uk without getting arrested