If Meta is really working on a new ActivityPub-powered social network, I see it as a very positive signal overall--my personal feelings towards Meta notwithstanding. For one, it's validation for our entire ecosystem from the biggest player. It also tells me that they don't see themselves as strong enough to keep users locked inside their walled garden anymore. It means the tide is really turning for interoperable social media, and that's always been the goal.

@Gargron I haven’t seen this yet but that’s exciting to hear

@Gargron ActivityPub has reached escape velocity

@Gargron My thoughts exactly. They see the future and they know it's not walled gardens.

More to the point, just because they're Meta doesn't mean they'll be successful.

Kodak was an early adopter of digital cameras, but they went bankrupt.

Why? Because they just couldn't leave film photography behind.

@Gargron preach father Eugen! 🙌🫶

@Gargron

Reply to me:

"the first thing I would do if I wanted to profit from decentralized social networks is implement a way for activitypub to be throttled unless clients sign up for API access. Then I would require those clients to give me all of their server and user data. Then I would implement features that people want, invest in UX and acquisition, and start injecting advertisements disguised as posts and activity into people’s streams. The “activity” that is pub’d WILL include ads."

@Gargron Hard agree on the tides.

They have had to acknowledge that the old patterns are disruptive and need to be taken serious.

Hopefully, these tides will continue to turn and strengthen.

@Gargron I wouldn't be so sure. It's Meta. it's cancer. Even if they start using AP, they will eventualy turn it into closed proprietary shit to shove ads into their users brain.

Very similar to what happened with XMPP and FB Messenger, WhatsApp, Google Chat and what not

@Gargron It is safe to say: You will be in the history books. ✨

@Gargron No. It means E3 all over again... :-/

@Gargron I don't know. Do you want your data to be on Facebook? Or in general on platforms that exist in order to collect personal data? Actually, I don't.

@Gargron please be aware of and careful about embrace and extend… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

@Gargron Well, it probably means they intend to embrace, extend and extinguish, so... watch out.

@Gargron

Embrace, extend, extinguish. THAT's what I worry about. You're presumably old enough to remember this was (and likely is) MSFT's Modus Operandi?

@Gargron if there is anything positive coming out of the bird site burning down, it's this! Such a great win for ActivityPub and the philosophy behind it!

@Gargron Let's hope they'er not trying to subverse ActivitPub by flooding it with custom "improvements" :S

@Gargron Meta has been hemorrhaging users for a few years now. Like Twitter it has tried to wall people off then suggesting they pay to promote themselves... and like Twitter... they are learning you don't have content creators when you force such things.

IMO, if they don't adapt they will stop existing.

Bots make up a lot of their interactions there now. Much like we see with Twitter.

@Gargron
Just keep in mind the strategy these corporations employ: Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

@Gargron
PLEASE be careful! This is #MarkFuckerberg ! He will NOT be looking out for #ActivityPub nor #Mastodon

@Gargron gotta Embrace before they Extend and Extinguish.

Maybe they'll take an open approach but that's not really what they're known for

@Gargron Just be careful of "Embrace and Extend". Remember what Google did to XMPP.

@Gargron I'm very much looking forward to this big gardens connecting to the network. I think there's a chance.

@Gargron Whatever they do, I wonʼt be jumping on board to their version.
Also itʼs not 2007. Their time has long passed.

@Gargron Congrats. You've really handled the #twitter onslaught well and most who understand the risks of participating in another privately held social media platform will end up here, I believe.

@Gargron Have to agree with those who believe it's an attempt to Embrace Extend Extinguish.

I won't be touching it.

@Gargron my hopes are that it doesn't become another corporate take over.

Mastodon and XMPP are not controlled by corporations and I pray to the gods that the 2 platforms are stepping it up to keep *them* from taking over.

At one time, back when the internet was a true system not controlled by corporate, a Jabber server could connect to all platforms (gtalk, yahoo, aol, Facebook messenger, Twitter) Now?!?!

Stop it before it happens, I beg you all.

@Gargron can't wait to be Embraced & Extended. I'm pretty sure there isn't a third part to this process.

@Gargron

is it possible to block an instance at the fediverse level

@Gargron I suppose meta could create their own gigantic (and modified) Mastodon instance and brand it as Facebook. They may even try to contribute to Mastodon’s source code and ultimately try to steer its development in whatever direction they want.

@Gargron one of the key strengths of the open source movement has been its ability to interact with and influence large companies, without becoming beholden to them. It's the only movement that breaks from the dominant cultural logic to have achieved this, as opposed to becoming separatist in nature. This is why the open-source movement has not only avoided destruction, but has accomplished and enormous amount.

@Gargron @matt I don’t know that it is necessarily validation. The company is desperate for something to succeed.

When careful, patient people pick your protocol then it is validation. This is just Meta grabbing at the newest threat and trying to use it because they can’t buy it

@Gargron Well, yes and no.

Maybe I'm still thinking too much about the embrace-extend-extinguish tactics of Micro$oft in the past, but I really don't expect Fac^H^H^HMeta to have seen the light and all of a sudden give the people something useful that they don't control.

There has to be some plan behind it to monetize it. Which -in itself- isn't wrong, but they're only in it for the money, everything else is secondary.

I don't trust Suckerberg. At all.

@Gargron while I'm with both you & @gruber on rolling out welcome mat for #Zuckstick + #Meta in #Fediverse serious concerns remain re: establishing “Digital Self Defence” tools, strategies, policies & laws re: persistent #PersonalData harvesting by #BigTech everywhere Zeros & Ones exist. Where's the balance between Open Web & Privacy? We have TONS of great #digital stuff precisely because there’s NO law or BAD law (especially in #AI).
Asking for citizens, individuals, families & #democracy 🙏

@Gargron Protocol over platform.

@Gargron still need some killer apps for VR. I can think of at least one that is not a conference room for boring legless meetings, but the rest of the tech is not ready yet

@Gargron I had earlier posted my questions and skepticism:

https://universeodon.com/@BrianJohnson/109999817515523341

@Gargron It's a panic signal in response to your work to liberate the social media for everyone. Hats off!

@Gargron
#FB ActivityPub can just go and get forked and we’ll all hang out over here in #MastoLand, no? But not surprised they are using “hot new tech phrases” to sound like they’re with it and happening. Maybe they can try a cryptocurrency as well… oh damn, they already did! 🤣

@Gargron “去中心化”、“保护多元”，被你这样有志向、有宽容，而且有能力的人所坚守着，是“胜者通吃”时代的清流。
谢谢。

"Decentralization" and "protection of diversity", which are upheld by ambitious, tolerant, and capable people like you, are the clear stream of the "winner takes all" era.
Thanks.

@Gargron @thegardendude nope, looking for a way to knock it down, beat it back and eventually kill it.

@Gargron
ride the tide> remains me of when linux was competition for microsoft. who assimilated who

@Gargron 👍

@Gargron
It's a sign they want to start the "Embrace Extend Extinguish" journey ASAP while they still have a chance. Don't trust the people at the centre of the biggest centralised social network when they say they're "decentralising": they've just noticed another market and are trying to take over that one too!

@Gargron The one thing they may not be considering fully is that these things were created as a way to get away from them in the first place. I don't see their dynasty lasting so dynastically.

@Gargron and the massive data influx plus the oversizing might kill actual independant instances and make ActivityPub a centralized protocol again...

@Gargron
Isn't the EU talking about forcing interoperability? Might just be trying to get ahead of the curve.

Still, good.

@Gargron when Facebook added XMPP support in 2010, was that "embracing interoperable social media", or was that bringing over more people from the free world into their walled garden, only to pull the plug 4 years later?

they have a history - we can't let them repeat it

@Gargron this statement is very funny to me as someone who used to use an XMPP client (Pidgin/libpurple) to connect to Facebook Messenger

@Gargron All of Facebook's recent successes aren't a result of innovation. Any recent success they have is because they either acquired or copied the competition.

Meta can't acquire the Fediverse. Therefore they copy.

But now they're on our terrain, and the game has changed. They don't get to set the rules anymore 🙂

@Gargron

Here's the link:

https://indieweb.social/@jesse/109999853802370426

@primalmotion @Gargron Kinda reminds me of Microsoft adopting Java

@primalmotion @Gargron But none started as a decentralized network like Mastodon. In fact, there's nothing stopping current instance admins from injecting ads into mastodon now if they really want to. All it takes is some coding know-how.

@Gargron @primalmotion METAstasis?

@ratcatcher @Gargron Totally agree, I doubt that peaceful coexistence with a potential competitor is their goal. Rather, they’ll try to „embrace, extend, extinguish“, as others have successfully done in the past. They aren’t looking for green pastures to relax on, but for cows to milk.

@Gargron

I *do* hope you're right, and I'm wrong. I just worry...

@atomicpoet @Gargron can they bully their way into future work on standards, like Google? I mean, web compliance is basically chromium, at this point.

@atomicpoet and most people think Zuck is the "visionary"... I'd say @Gargron meets the true definition of that.

@nicholasr @Gargron I feel this warning as someone who lived through Microsoft’s repeated embrace and extend era

@wxstationexpert @Gargron Did you read my post? :) XMPP was decentralized way before ActivityPub was a thing. All corpo chat systems were using it, allowing to talk to people on Google Chat from your instance in your garage.

Then, once they stealed users from the network, they plainly and simply changed the protocol.

@atomicpoet @Gargron The Fediverse can copy FB groups, events and shared photo albums. It would allow so many people to finally to get off the platform.

@tehstu @Gargron What makes a standard a standard?

@primalmotion @Gargron Okay, so I missed one out of that list. My bad. Doesn't change my point that all you fear could already be done. These services know what they're getting into. I don't see this as a good thing for everyone in the long run.

@brennansv @Gargron You can do this with Friendica right now.

@atomicpoet @Gargron Appointed oversight organizations presumably, but I guess also sheer inertia. I mean, what's more open than email? But it really isn't any more. Etc.

@atomicpoet @tehstu @Gargron de jure standard or de-facto?

One defined by agreement and standards organisation, the other by 'the market' or general acceptance

@wxstationexpert @Gargron I'm sorry I don't understand your point. XMPP is not an item in the list. XMPP was the underlying protocol of all items in that list.

Of course everything can be done. I can even paste an ad here, in my reply. I can also automate my own instance to do so on every post. But I won't because I'm not Meta. but Meta is Meta.

Also I don't fear anything. The moment meta is on the fedirverse it's gonna be instantly banned from 99% of the instances.

@tehstu @Gargron I disagree. What makes a standard a standard is actual usage.

Perfect case in point is the battle between Micro Channel and EISA.

IBM was the big kahuna and backed Micro Channel. They lost.

And why?

Because EISA is what most people actually used.

Just because a company has money and a large market cap doesn't meant they get to dictate standards 🙂

@atomicpoet @Gargron Yeah, use is what I meant by inertia. If Meta's use of ActivityPub gains inertia, and they're able to influence the standard, that's not necessarily great.

Again, see: Google.

I think we broadly agree, that this is net positive exposure for the fediverse, but where I differ is that I wouldn't break out the Kodak example just yet. They could just as easily be someone who successfully pivots.

@tehstu @Gargron Meta doesn’t even have a product right now and they’re not even using ActivityPub right now. Before they dictate what happens with ActivityPub they have to adopt it first.

What people have to acknowledge is that there’s already a community here of millions of people, many of which are hostile to Meta’s interests.

Success isn’t guaranteed for Meta just because they show up.

@atomicpoet @Gargron That's fair. Google did roll up with a great new browser, admittedly.

@Gargron From experience I can tell you the Facebook playbook:

1) Tightly embrace and clone the latest new thing

2) Reach out to the people who've been key in building/supporting that new thing with attractive partnerships to gain their support, trust and endorsement

3) Abruptly pull support from those same people when either a) the current new thing is under their control or b) the next new thing arrives

I've seen these movies too many times and the sequels keep getting worse.

@mike @Gargron isn't that embrace extend extinguish? but like, accelerated?

@mike @Gargron Embrace, extend, extinguish.

@mike @Gargron LOL I think I had a thread going about this for a few years https://twitter.com/anildash/status/951597964513959936

@mike @Gargron
these guys always try to grab at money. zero paid for 50 years. walk away

@mike @Gargron *Microsoft nods in approval*

#EmbraceAndExtend

@mike @Gargron I already have money on it.

@mike @Gargron i could be missing the thrust and being obvious, and if so i'll own that ^^;

@mike @Gargron
This is a slightly more detailed version of your points Mike, if you have not read it before.
https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/

@Roglozor

It is not just about Meta. Meta, Google, Twitter etc. are primarily digital advertising companies. Advertising sales are the primary source of their revenue. There is nothing wrong here. It is a business model. Many of us, including myself, have immensely benefited from Google’s offerings like search engine and YouTube.

Digital advertising companies have to increase their revenue by expanding their advertising offerings and improving the effectiveness of their ads. One way to achieve this is to increase its reach and, thus, expand its user base and markets. If one or all of them conclude that ActivityPub powered social network is a business necessity for monetization, it will be executed to meet the business objectives. In the process, if Embrace-Extend-Extinguish approach has to to be followed for anything, so be it. If ActivityPub has to be dumped, after acquiring users and their personal data, there won’t be any regret.

I strongly believe that Fediverse is here to stay on its own merit and not as an alternative.

#ActivityPub #Meta #DigitalAdvertising #Advertising #WalledGarden #Fediverse #Google

cc: @Gargron @srijit @srijit

@Gargron
Wish I shared your optimism.

Meta are E.E.E. to the extreme. Any innovation that gains traction in any social media platform is immediately cloned by Meta to stamp out the pesky competition before it can get a toehold.

That’s all AP is to them, pesky competition that needs to be wiped out.

@Gargron

Eugen Rochko's creation, the Fediverse, is revolutionary not only for the social media landscape, but also serves as a model of decentralized, cooperative activities of many participants for other areas of society. It transforms capitalist economics and therefore cannot be combined or reconciled with approaches by monopolistic, profit-maximizing companies like Meta, Google, etc.
Eugen, success forces caution!

See also:

https://www.ecogood.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_for_the_Common_Good

😘 🙏